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Way Big Downgrade to 7A

Greenshifter said:
Because they fought and Nemesis even KO'd Eatle. Yeah that was kind of an oversight but do you guys seriously want me to write on Atomix' profile that since he is Ben's second most powerful alien that he should be stronger than Eatle (instead of Way Big) and use that as his justification for High 5-A?
Click to expand...
Well actually it was Jennifer Nocturn and she was using a suit that was even better than the regular one to fight Eatle and the regular one was undamaged after being hit and overpowered by Ultimate Humungousaur (who was pretty pissed), and if Ultimate Humungousaur gets scaled back to Sir George he would be 5-A, so already Captain Nemesis' regular suit should be at least planet level and Eatle overpowered the guantlet of that suit prior to fighting the better one. Also if right now Eatle is scaled higher than Way Big then it should be added instead, I'm also pretty sure it has been stated by the creators anyways that Way Big is the 6th most powerful Alien Ben has.
 
Captain Nemesis used a mech which doesn't scale to any of his other suits nor any other alien besides Eatle.
 
Liger686 said:
Captain Nemesis used a mech which doesn't scale to any of his other suits nor any other alien besides Eatle.
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But it does scale to his other suits since a Gauntlet from one of his suits couldn't beat Eatle, but the mech could, although even if it doesn't scale to his other suits it still beaten Eatle who contended with Diagonax
 
Euhm okay then I'd have to watch that episode then. Regardless Nemesis doesn't have a page rn so that's an issue for later. I thought he'd have more anti-feats but due to his inhibitors and different suits he doesn't really have any anti-feats at first glance.
 
And to be honest Eatle being more powerful than Way Big isn't too far fetched since it has been stated by WoG (I would post a link but it has been taken down since and just became Ben 10 knowledge) that Way Big is Ben's 6th most powerful alien and the only known ones that are for sure more powerful are Alien X and Atomix
 
I'm pretty sure that WoG wasn't totally reliable and Ben would probably use Eatle more like a God tier then as well if he actually was one.
 
Greenshifter said:
I'm pretty sure that WoG wasn't totally reliable and Ben would probably use Eatle more like a God tier then as well if he actually was one.
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Fair, though Eatle is seen as being easy to control
 
"Misuse of the Omnitrix" was never a statement. The situation with the Omntrix is explicitly different from Ascalon. George may have been holding back sure, but Ultimate Humungosaur still harmed him with a shockwave.

The point was that "misuse of Ascalon" doesn't necessarily mean that it scales to its regular AP, especially if contradicted by other evidence. So basically George's durability is used as the justification which comes from fighting Vilgax with some of Dagon's power, the same Vilgax that fought on par with Eatle which should be one of Ben's mid to top tiers instead of god tiers for obvious reasons. Also George got killed by Dagon where as Gwen's shield + Kevin's armor was enough for them to survive.

For one thing, we did actuallly see how Galvan was destroyed and it was in fact done by only one warship. Yes those "fodder lasers" which were the same ones that destroyed Galvan. They were in Galvan's atmosphere when it was destroyed just as they were in Earh's atmosphere when they planned to destroy it as well.

The lasers they used on Ship were side-lasers and thus not the main ones. It was never clear that the laser aimed to Azmuth's headquarters blew up Galvan and it wouldn't make sense either since the laser climbed in height instead of aiming for the core. You can't really blow up a planet that way so it must have been another laser off-screen, also all Galvans except Azmuth would be dead if it was the laser we see on-screen since there was no time to evacuate at all. I don't remember a scene of them charging up a laser to destroy earth and if there was one you would have provided this as evidence that it took only one laser to blow up a planet and no them appearing on a planet does not mean that is the distance at which they were gonna blow up said planet since they had to appear on the surface because of the Hyperspace Jump Gate.

This also doesn't really matter since Gwen doesn't scale to it.

Sure it would. The other ultimates, besides Echo Echo and Humungosaur, have consistent feats putting them on Diamondhead and Vilgax's level. Echo Echo and Humungosaur are consistently above them, such as when Negative Ultimate Humungosaur one-shot Diamondhead with an attack.

Oh so now a warning shot scales to half of those who "tanked it" and not the other half, very consistent. Instead of idk assuming the warning shot wasn't a full power attack? Also scan of Ultimate Humungousaur fighting Diamondhead please.

So, you're using a feat of Ultimate Echo Echo withstanding an attack from Gwen to discredit them scaling from each other? Hmmm. You're assuming she held back without any proof she did so. In fact, there's more proof that she didn't hold back. She was POed and the Ultimate Aliens were actively trying to kill Ben.

I'm saying this is the only feat that could possibly be argued for the ultimates scaling to Gwen and even then it's super iffy. Especially when you plan to kill someone with one attack later on and statements like this don't fall under feats > statements since it's a statement of someone saying they're holding back by the person doing the attack which is one of the most reliable statements you can get and I can't think of any examples of people scaling to other people who explicitly state they are holding back. It would be like scaling Izuku Midoriya to All Might when they "fight" and completely disregard All Might holding back.

Your argument basically boils down to "Morningstar got billions of times stronger in a few minutes and I don't think that makes sense." Which again is an argument from incredulity.

He was shown to slightly get stronger to the point that blocking his attacks with Diamondhead's shields wouldn't work anymore and then almost oneshots Humungousaur, meaning he grew in power during those 30 seconds but would still be 7-A or maybe High 7-A, then suddenly 15 seconds later he is comparable to Ultimate Humungousaur and keeps being comparable for a few more minutes. This wouldn't be the case unless Humungousaur and Ultimate Humungousaur are relatively close in tier. But to be fair he did state that he could have smashed Ben and Kevin like bugs after the fight and since I account for statements and not just feats I could possibly agree if you argued he was just holding back against Ben and Kevin.

Characters that are stronger than base Humungosaur and fight on par with Ultimate Humungosaur, would scale to Ultimate Humungosaur. Which characters are these exactly?

Mostly Morningstar and possibly Ultimate Aggregor since he didn't get oneshot (more like 2 to 3-shot) by Ultimate Kevin so he'd be comparable but weaker. Also Adwaita used to be the bridge between Ultimate Humungousaur and Ultimate Aggregor.
 
Don't worry I assure you no one is touching Eatle my boy got High 5-A all over him, and he's staying there lol p.s Ascolon got AP boost from my calc
 
Apparently the suit of Nemesis that beat Eatle got knocked back by a regular mana blast from Gwen and Eatle got oneshot by a regular eye beam from Vilgax with Ascalon so either it was just AF Vilgax's own power that did it which is a huge anti-feat or it was his power amped by Ascalon which makes it questionable that he even scales to Ascalon in the first place.
 
Greenshifter said:
Apparently the suit of Nemesis that beat Eatle got knocked back by a regular mana blast from Gwen and Eatle got oneshot by a regular eye beam from Vilgax with Ascalon so either it was just AF Vilgax's own power that did it which is a huge anti-feat or it was his power amped by Ascalon which makes it questionable that he even scales to Ascalon in the first place.
Click to expand...
Yes it did get hit back with a regular mana blast and seemed no longer functioning after gwen shocked it and Jennifer Nocturn. Also Vilgax could have been amped but idk
 
The point was that "misuse of Ascalon" doesn't necessarily mean that it scales to its regular AP, especially if contradicted by other evidence.

Again, misuse refers to destruction. Just because he doesn't destroy a planet with every attack doesn't prevent him from having High 5-A attacks. It's called the AOE fallacy. Nothing contradicts the fact that he has High 5-A ap.

So basically George's durability is used as the justification which comes from fighting Vilgax with some of Dagon's power, the same Vilgax that fought on par with Eatle which should be one of Ben's mid to top tiers instead of god tiers for obvious reasons.

Eatle is quite inconsistent actually. So, I would be fine with an at least 7-A, likely High 5-A for him and Nemesis' mech. Although its only your headcanon that he can't be a god tier.

Also George got killed by Dagon where as Gwen's shield + Kevin's armor was enough for them to survive.

George got killed by an attack, yes. I don't see how Gwen's shield and Kevin's armor protecting them from Diagon's mind control has anything to do with that.

The lasers they used on Ship were side-lasers and thus not the main ones.

They also used the lasers from the front of the ship, which weren't shown to be different in any way to the other lasers. You're making distinctions that don't exist. What exactly makes these lasers weaker? All you're doing is making assumptions. Unless these lasers were stated to be weaker for some reason, or are clearly weaker (which they aren't), then there is no reason to assume so.

It was never clear that the laser aimed to Azmuth's headquarters blew up Galvan and it wouldn't make sense either since the laser climbed in height instead of aiming for the core. You can't really blow up a planet that way so it must have been another laser off-screen, also all Galvans except Azmuth would be dead if it was the laser we see on-screen since there was no time to evacuate at all. I don't remember a scene of them charging up a laser to destroy earth and if there was one you would have provided this as evidence that it took only one laser to blow up a planet and no them appearing on a planet does not mean that is the distance at which they were gonna blow up said planet since they had to appear on the surface because of the Hyperspace Jump Gate.

After the laser hits Azmuth's headquarters you can see chunks of rock flying everywhere and given the stars in the background its clearly supposed to be the planet exploding.

WarshipDestroysGalvan1
Clearly within the atmosphere

WarshipDestroysGalvan2
Before planet explosio

WarshipDestroysGalvan3
After planet explosion (notice the stars, lack of the sky, and lack of any structure you could see before

This also doesn't really matter since Gwen doesn't scale to it.

She does. The warships were undamaged after being caught within a planetary explosion. The "glass" (we don't know what it is made of, as it is an extraterrestrial material) would have been shattered long before any of those ships made it to Earth. Gwen could blow a hole through that and thought herself capable of destroying the entire fleet.

Oh so now a warning shot scales to half of those who "tanked it" and not the other half, very consistent. Instead of idk assuming the warning shot wasn't a full power attack?

Yep, it's consistent for the two aliens that scale to a different High 5-A feat and an outlier for the other ones, who are explicitly weaker.

Also scan of Ultimate Humungousaur fighting Diamondhead please.

Ben 10 Omniverse Episode 38 (19:55-20:11)

I'm saying this is the only feat that could possibly be argued for the ultimates scaling to Gwen and even then it's super iffy. Especially when you plan to kill someone with one attack later on and statements like this don't fall under feats > statements since it's a statement of someone saying they're holding back by the person doing the attack which is one of the most reliable statements you can get and I can't think of any examples of people scaling to other people who explicitly state they are holding back. It would be like scaling Izuku Midoriya to All Might when they "fight" and completely disregard All Might holding back.

That statement, in no way, implies that she held back. It means that she's planning to kill them with another one. Doesn't take away from the fact that she wasn't holding back with her previous attack.

He was shown to slightly get stronger to the point that blocking his attacks with Diamondhead's shields wouldn't work anymore and then almost oneshots Humungousaur, meaning he grew in power during those 30 seconds but would still be 7-A or maybe High 7-A, then suddenly 15 seconds later he is comparable to Ultimate Humungousaur and keeps being comparable for a few more minutes. This wouldn't be the case unless Humungousaur and Ultimate Humungousaur are relatively close in tier. But to be fair he did state that he could have smashed Ben and Kevin like bugs after the fight and since I account for statements and not just feats I could possibly agree if you argued he was just holding back against Ben and Kevin.

No, it doesn't. Humungosaur was stomped by Morningstar. He doesn't scale to Morningstar nor to Ultimate Humungosaur, at all.

Mostly Morningstar and possibly Ultimate Aggregor since he didn't get oneshot (more like 2 to 3-shot) by Ultimate Kevin so he'd be comparable but weaker. Also Adwaita used to be the bridge between Ultimate Humungousaur and Ultimate Aggregor

Morningstar's tier varies based on how much energy he absorbs, ranging from AF Kevin to Ultimate Humungosaur. Ultimate Aggregor got stomped. He doesn't scale. Adwaita fought Ultimate Humungosaur while in possession of the Alpha Rune. He was only defeated by Aggregor after he took the Alpha Rune from him.
 
just want to elaborate on what Liger said, Kevin and Gwen not being affected by Diagon's mind control has 0 to do with their durabilty or AP, metal and mana protects you from his mind control. Sir George was never affected by Diagon's mind control for that exact reason.
 
Didn't mean the mind control, mean them surviving an eye beam by Dagon, which is probably an outlier but still.
 
Hopefully after this is settled next person whoever wanna downscale or make a CRT fully read this thread before anything
 
@Luk I am aware, I'll probably upgrade them to High 5-A for now in a few days if this isn't settled for scaling above Eatle.

It's only Malgax, Atomix and Atomic-X that I need to upgrade for scaling to Eatle right guys?
 
Greenshifter said:
@Luk I am aware, I'll probably upgrade them to High 5-A for now in a few days if this isn't settled for scaling above Eatle.
It's only Malgax, Atomix and Atomic-X that I need to upgrade right for scaling to Eatle right guys?
Click to expand...
Yes
 
Well, I think that Liger seems to make sense.
 
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