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Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

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It doesn't matter who started it. You still derailed the topic by talking about other verses that are completely unrelated to the conversation
 
@DarkDragonMedeus About your standards that temporal omnipresent beings can be defeated with a finite speed. The hedgehogs don't apply. Here Sonic has to attack Solaris' core at the front of his body, he can't do this with finite or even infinite speed, since Solaris turns around to follow where Sonic is going and since he is omnipresent, all his positions would be happening all at once, meaning Sonic has no way to target the core the way he does (and realistically no way at all) since Solaris' arms would always be in the way. There is also this which has huge AoE and would kill the Hedgehogs the moment he went second form if they had no immeasurable speed since he can just spam this all over the area and all these beams would be happening all at once (same for the meteors really) since we already established that these attacks are omnipresent through time as well since switching between Hedgehogs doesn't exempt you from dodging it. The hedgehogs also don't have a type of acausality that would prevent this, aren't dimensional traveling and have no cosmic awareness. (Btw most people that fight omnipresent beings would need immeasurable speed with very little exceptions such as someone like Zen'o, who currently doesn't have immeasurable speed)
 
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That just means attacks have Omnipresent AoE, not real proof of Immeasurable combat speed or reactions.
 
Incorrect, temporal omnipresent AoE doesn't cut it to get to the core since the arms would still be in the way. This also doesn't explain how the hedgehogs don't insta-die when Solaris turns second form or heck even in first form.
 
I mean to defeat a temporal omnipresent being you probably do need some form of AoE through time, even with immeasurable speed I think. Could be wrong tho.
 
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Sonic's Arrow of Light is just boosting into Solaris

Silver is just grabbing the attacks and throwing them back at him with his psychokinesis

Shadow's Chaos Spears are the only who could be argued AoE
 
Ok, these are the new standards for non-omnipresent VS omnipresent fights as written by Promestein

Now, here's how this applies to Solaris:

The super hedgehog trio weren't using AoE attacks to defeat Solaris, as Sonic physically rammed him, Shadow sends Spears of Light, which is just an augmented version of his Chaos Spear, at him while Silver uses his telekinesis to redirect Solaris' own attacks back at him. The hedgehog trio also doesn't have Acausality in their profiles (except Acausality type 1, which isn't going to help them against someone omnipresent across time such as Solaris), nor does they has cosmic awareness (whatever that is). They do have dimensional travel, but that's because they can teleport between universes with chaos control or something. There's nothing that is on that list that applies to hedgehogs in order for them to somehow defeat Solaris with measurable attack speed or reactions. And like we said before, none of these things also explains how Solaris can hurt Super Shadow in the past while his attack meant to hit Super Silver in the future
 
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There we go. So that leads us back to my argument:
Greenshifter said:
@DarkDragonMedeus About your standards that temporal omnipresent beings can be defeated with a finite speed. The hedgehogs don't apply. Here Sonic has to attack Solaris' core at the front of his body, he can't do this with finite or even infinite speed, since Solaris turns around to follow where Sonic is going and since he is omnipresent, all his positions would be happening all at once, meaning Sonic has no way to target the core the way he does (and realistically no way at all) since Solaris' arms would always be in the way. There is also this which has huge AoE and would kill the Hedgehogs the moment he went second form if they had no immeasurable speed since he can just spam this all over the area and all these beams would be happening all at once (same for the meteors really) since we already established that these attacks are omnipresent through time as well since switching between Hedgehogs doesn't exempt you from dodging it. The hedgehogs also don't have a type of acausality that would prevent this, aren't dimensional traveling and have no cosmic awareness. (Btw most people that fight omnipresent beings would need immeasurable speed with very little exceptions such as someone like Zen'o, who currently doesn't have immeasurable speed)
Click to expand...
Which says that even with only temporal AoE Solaris can’t be defeated. (Also does Solaris get pushed backed by attacks or not?)
 
Solaris having temporal omnipresence is still not quite evidence that all his attacks move at Immeasurable speeds. Attacking people in the past and future at the same time is still Solaris attacks having temporal AoE. An attack can be omnipresent across time and not across space, and still move through space at finite speeds. Even characters who do have Immeasurable speed actually normally can't harm someone with temporal omnipresence. I'll say this to avoid confusion; Omnipresence is neither better nor worse than Immeasurable speed, but rather it's just different. Though, according to Antoniofer, it is technically better in most situations by nature that you don't even need to move.

But anyway, Sonic does have "Low Multiversal range" in his Super Sonic key, so him having temporal Omnipresent AoE isn't out of the question. Also saying, "He doesn't currently have these abilities on his profile" can always be changed if there's more reason. But at the same time, characters don't need all of those abilities to beat someone omnipresent as I can explain why those abilities are listed as such. Dimensional Travel can be used to evade an attack of someone nuking the entire Universe/Multiverse. Even characters who have Immeasurable speed can't always dodge those attacks even if the attacker has finite attack speed; they just need to exit the dimension via dimensional travel. Though, Solaris case, his meteors or lasers aren't quite doing that across space, only time. Cosmic Awareness is just something that can help react the omnipresent foe's existing in the future; not something that helps too much. And Acausality type 1 is very helpful; since Sonic is still around even if Solaris killed Sonic's past self. But type 2 for instance would help make Solaris not predict him.

But that being said, it's often possible even characters who are Immeasurable wouldn't be able to defeat people like Solaris. The only way to beat Solaris is to have Omnipresent temporal AoE given his omnipresent temporal existence. So I really still don't see any Immeasurable speed feats but just temporal omnipresence for Solaris and Sonic having the range to effect omnipresents.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
An attack can be omnipresent across time and not across space, and still move through space at finite speeds.
Click to expand...
If Solaris at the beginning of time shoots a temporal omnipresent attack at the hedgehogs, then it is undodgeable for all of them without immeasurable speed, since 5 seconds later it will be at the position that the hedgehogs are standing a few million years later (for instance) and thus hit them, type 1 or 2 acausality doesn’t help with this.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Even characters who have Immeasurable speed can't always dodge those attacks even if the attacker has finite attack speed
Click to expand...
Correct, they'd probably need to move across a higher temporal dimension to go the "point" before the omnipresent being decides to attack.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But that being said, it's often possible even characters who are Omnipresent wouldn't be able to defeat people like Solaris. The only way to beat Solaris is to have Omnipresent temporal AoE given his omnipresent temporal existence. So I really still don't see any Immeasurable speed feats but just temporal omnipresence for Solaris and Sonic having the range to effect omnipresents.
Click to expand...
Exactly my point, Solaris would be like a solid cylinder with a core in the middle in every point in time, thus if you only hit the edge of the cylinder through all of time then at best you push back the core a little (even if you manage to push it out of the cylinder it's probably not exploitable and Solaris can easily create a new cylinder by turning around before the hedgehogs can move, see the 5 seconds argument that I brought up earlier). The only way to actually beat Solaris is moving through a higher temporal dimension or defeating him before he moves, which can only be done with immeasurable speed.

Another unrelated argument is Silver probably TK'ing a meteor of Solaris through all of time, thus he is thinking about an uncountably infinite amount of objects at the same time, which should give him immeasurable reaction speed as well.

Tho I will say due to how the fight is portrayed that immeasurable speed for Solaris makes more sense.
 
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Temporal AoE doesn't work because that is implying Solaris is only attacking in one point and then his attacks have a area of effect that hits all points in time, which isn't true, his attacks are physically onmipresent

Adding a bunch of abilities Sonic doesn't have so he doesn't have immesurable speed seems a bit too much, also Shadow has no acasuality, and Sonic's came from generations, Silver is the only one who had it at the time of 06

Range doesn't work because first, they wouldn't need Sonic since they already have enough range, and in the guide we use especially notes Sonic's power and speed being enough to beat him, not range, second is that Sonic Arrow of Light doesn't have 2-C range otherwise he wouldn't need to, y'know, actualy physically ram towards Solaris, very counter productive

Otherwise I agree with Green, I would make a better response but I am still busy
 
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Actually, about the first point still doesn't quite improve Immeasurable speed. Reaching "A higher dimension" still isn't Immeasurable reaction speed but just high up levels of Dimensional Travel. Also, you mentioned "After 5 seconds, it would reach where they're standing millions of years into the future." The "5 seconds" statement wouldn't follow what Immeasurable speed is. Taking 0 seconds to reach every period in time would be Infinite, and taking a negative number to reach all that would be Immeasurable.

I covered point 2 in my first paragraph; it's irrelevant whether or not the hedgehogs have Immeasurable speed, but reaching higher dimension would be the more sufficient requirement.

Well again, none of that is really something that requires a negative number reaction time. But rather that's just something requiring to reach or cover all periods of time simultaneously. Which isn't a speed feat but a range and/or ability feat. Same goes for the Silver's telekinesis. It does say power which is an AP feat, and speed just needs to be above Solaris' reaction speed. But we're questioning Solaris having Immeasurable reaction speed feats to begin with.

And yes, I agree with Shake, I'm also glad everyone else is being a good sport too.
 
DDM your point is kinda only replying to Green, so I don't understand what you are arguing against, since I myself didn't argue any of those points

Anyways I feel like you nitpicked Green's wording there, "5 seconds" wasn't about actual time passing, but instead a metaphor since he immediately said "5 million years pass", his point was that time didn't matter and wasn't flowing linear, thus not following the speed formula, that would indeed be a negative

Also, I at least, haven't argued that immesurable comes from them hitting Solaris (where AoE would be important), but instead dodging something from the past (-1) to the future (1) which would be a negative on the speed formula, since the time taken wouldn't be applicable

Also again they just having the AoE wouldn't work because otherwise Silver's statment about beating him in the past, present, future all at once being true, which isn't what the narrative says

All in all I still stand by my points, and instead of us arguing in circles more staff unrelated to Sonic should comment, since it's always the same staff (DDM and sometimes Matt, and no offense DDM but you were always against immesurable Sonic since before this thread) arguing with the same people (Me, Shake, Mav, etc.), and since they are no more active knowelegeble staff on the series, I do think we need more opinions then the same old

Also I am going to be busy until monday, so unless someone from the pro side argues between then I might not be able to reply
 
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