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What? I literally already proved there was no merge man, I don't know why you just repeated thatAlso, Matt is right that Time being messed up. If someone is causing Past, Present, and Future to be merged into time periods, then that only makes Immeasurable speed even more dubious. Not to mention the "Weak point" was even stated in lore about needing to be struck "Across all three time periods".
You took me way too literally there dude, my point was that they can see Solaris, I said he "was like the sun" because he shines a bright light which is why he is called the sun god, not that he is a sun, anyways yeah, they can see Solaris, I said that in my postWait, you said they comment on it phase's Solaris so it would kind of disprove their they just saw Solaris as something like the sun; I am not talking about the control explanation which should be game mechanics.
It's isn't moving, that is Sonic flying buddy, you can see by his aura, if you stand still nothing is moving, and again, cheering isn't a anti-featIt would be antifeats for both cases; we still take note of them. In the end, the number of antifeats vs feats take precedence for the evaluation on what is accepted on the profile. The background looks to be moving, also.
Matt is WRONG, my first paragraph is literally debunking him, please do not ignore that part of my postIf Solaris get a downgrade from Immeasuble then I don't think Hedgehogs won't get the speed also. I think it is never explained how the Hedgehogs travel to different time periods; going from Matthew's points, it sounds like it could the nature of time being mess up from Occam's Razor than them having immeasurable speed suddenly at peal. The distorted world is a mess of time periods which is shown when collecting the Chaos Emeralds seems to support this point. I am not fully sure about the gameplay statement on the rift in the English version as the Japanese statement makes it sounds like the world still has messed up time periods. Correct me if I am wrong, though
What? Solaris being beaten reverted him to a flame, it has nothing to do with the fight, Solaris was fought across all of time, I said already in my originalSolaris's flame needing blown off from being a tiny flame for it completely defeated, support the fight take place is just separated time periods.
Time WASN'T a mess, and the cast DIDN'T reactI will say this point: there is PIS about the fight from the reactions from the casts and the nature of time is like a mess. I will be neutral on the matter but kind of leaning that Immeasurable speed might be iffy, right now.
I would recommend for @Elizah to re-read my post because a lot of his points are explained here, and I feel like he didn't understand them very well, and to also click on every link to read the original translationContext
I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here
Misconceptions
First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional
First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change
First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both
And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier
The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering
Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points
First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long
Arguments
Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself
Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:
This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong
Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.
Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.
Conclusion
The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.
There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub inventionWhat I want to know is, what proves that the hedgehogs weren’t in the spacetime distortion? What proves that it disappeared during the fight? Eggman could easily be referring to Solaris eventually destroying time and space. Everything else has further explanation but when it comes to this rift I don’t see any evidence which is why I’m still iffy on it.
But in your links, shadow talks about an intersection of space and time, and even then if it were only affecting space, silver is still with them who was in the future.There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub invention
There's a SPATIAL (nothing about time) that caused Sonic's and Silver's timeline to intersect in a point, anyways the super forms fly out of the intersection, there are out of there during the fight, and they fly back in afterwards.
I mean, yeah, there should be several instances of those.You can say that to any other verse with immeasurable speed. Since Immeasurable is infinitely above everything else, then any lower showing of speed immediately disqualifies the immeasurable feat.
They just fly up to solaris, nothing states or proves that they fly in and out of the intersection. The background still stays the same during the fight and in the cutscene as well.There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub invention
There's a SPATIAL (nothing about time) that caused Sonic's and Silver's timeline to intersect in a point, anyways the super forms fly out of the intersection, there are out of there during the fight, and they fly back in afterwards.
Do you not know what intersection means? It is the point where two lines cross, a spatial distortion made Sonic and Silver's timeline connect in a point, that's why only stages from his future and present stages are there, this is simpleBut in your links, shadow talks about an intersection of space and time, and even then if it were only affecting space, silver is still with them who was in the future.
This is an argument from ignorance, the purple background is the background out of the intersection, as seen if you take too long in End of the World. There is proof, the intersection is where the characters are, Solaris isn't there, Sonic and Co fly to him, therefore they aren't there, this is basic logicThey just fly up to solaris, nothing states or proves that they fly in and out of the intersection. The background still stays the same during the fight and in the cutscene as well.
How is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see your point.Do you not know what intersection means? It is the point where two lines cross, a spatial distortion made Sonic and Silver's timeline connect in a point, that's why only stages from his future and present stages are there, this is simple
This is an argument from ignorance, the purple background is the background out of the intersection, as seen if you take too long in End of the World. There is proof, the intersection is where the characters are, Solaris isn't there, Sonic and Co fly to him, therefore they aren't there, this is basic logic
Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculationHow is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see your point.
It’s a background change with no indication that they are out of the rift. I just want a statement or just anything that isn’t vague as hell. All we have is eggman say the rift won’t last for long which can mean plenty of things.
The background still looks completely ****** up and rift-like, and in the cutscene where shadow talks about it, the rift still looks similar to the one in the battle.
No, it wasn't. The blaster fired while all the Emeralds were still inside Emerl. Which is sort of why I've been kind of against the 4-A rating admittedly.They should scale to 4-A, as Final Egg Blaster was empowered by the chaos emeralds.
How is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculation
What the hell do you mean by vague? It's literally clear as water, the End of the World background turns purple like when it's close to disappearing, just like the background where Solaris is, just because the characters don't shout exposition doesn't make something "vague", something called "interpretation" exists, alos what the hell do you mean by "it can't last long means many things" no, it means something is temporary, it's blatant so
The "sky" that you see in the cutscene is already outside the intersection, where we see Solaris, using that as an argument is extremely fallacious when the intersection is the End of the World level, and that background is nothing like the Solaris fight
The intersection is where things from Sonic's world are, where they aren't isn't it, it's that simple
Shadow in your scan legit says that Solaris created an intersection of time and space. You would still have to affect time to bring silver to the rift, as he was currently in the future.Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculation
What the hell do you mean by vague? It's literally clear as water, the End of the World background turns purple like when it's close to disappearing, just like the background where Solaris is, just because the characters don't shout exposition doesn't make something "vague", something called "interpretation" exists, alos what the hell do you mean by "it can't last long means many things" no, it means something is temporary, it's blatant so
The "sky" that you see in the cutscene is already outside the intersection, where we see Solaris, using that as an argument is extremely fallacious when the intersection is the End of the World level, and that background is nothing like the Solaris fight
The intersection is where things from Sonic's world are, where they aren't isn't it, it's that simple
You completely ignored my last point that was the most the important oneShadow in your scan legit says that Solaris created an intersection of time and space. You would still have to affect time to bring silver to the rift, as he was currently in the future.
Look man, your other evidence was solid, but this ain’t it to me. There is absolutely no evidence during the last story that they leave the rift.
You claim that the background change during the gameplay indicates a point where they are and are not in the rift. This is false. For starters, at the beginning of the story, it is stated multiple times that they are in a timespace rift (this means the blueish purple void in the cutscenes). In the gameplay sequence, the background gets more and more darker and you need to hit eagle statues, which stablize the rift and gets rid of solaris’ eyes. This does not prove that this section and only this section is the rift, because again that same void in the cutscene is implied to be a timespace rift the same way the one in the game is where you find all seven emeralds. The color change is nothing more than a gameplay mechanic that warns the player that spacetime is becoming unstable. Nothing implies that they are not connected. Once you get all emeralds, the cutscene plays where the hedgehogs become super and fight Solaris. The background here is the exact same as the background in the beginning. And it’s also the exact same when you fight Solaris too.
Nothing, and I mean nothing implies that they leave the rift at any time. Eggman saying that the rift won’t last for long doesn’t mean anything, because the same rift background that’s used in the beginning is also used during the fight cutscene and boss fight. And it would be a complete assumption to say that the rift stopped when they fought Solaris, because again, nothing is stated that even proves that.
Again, there’s absolutely no statement in game that proves that where Solaris is =/= the rift. Objects don’t appear in the Solaris fight because they flew all the way up in the air, but even then, there’s no real evidence that no objects means they aren’t in the rift, and it’s nothing more but complete assumptions. If spacetime wasn’t distorted during the fight then the background would at least have to be different because it indicates they aren’t in a rift anymore, but clearly it’s not the case. Until you can prove to me that they left the rift then I’m in agreement still.You completely ignored my last point that was the most the important one
The intersection of time and space is show to be places where things from Sonic's world that weren't destroyed are, just as the plataforms were they are standing, they are the thing in the first cutscene during the festival
To make myself clear, anything that is show objects of Sonic's world is the intersection, if there aren't objects, it isn't their safe spot
Now are there objects during the Solaris fight? No. Therefore they aren't in the intersection, this is your clear cut evidence, one that you ignored and procced to nitpick my points
Dude, stop being stubborn with your stance "of NO EVIDENCE", it feels like you are in denial.
The objects are only there because of the intersection, you are the one who wants to be spoonfeed something so basic as common logic
Look, everything that didn't get obliterated is in the intersection, the main characters, objects, everything because Solaris destroyed the rest, obviously where it was destroyed it wouldn't have anything, therefore if there are things alive? Inside the safe area. Where they aren't? It isn't. Are there proof of safe areas where the Dude, stop being stubborn with your stance "of NO EVIDENCE", it feels like you are in denial.
dude no. A space time rift can be unstable and not have matter. Nothing is implying that the empty portions of the rift are lacking in time shenanigans. And saying that it’s only the places with separate pieces of matter again has no proof. There’s nothing disproving that time is unstable through all of the rift, and it’s even stated in game multiple times.The objects are only there because of the intersection, you are the one who wants to be spoonfeed something so basic as common logic
Look, everything that didn't get obliterated is in the intersection, the main characters, objects, everything because Solaris destroyed the rest, obviously where it was destroyed it wouldn't have anything, therefore if there are things alive? Inside the safe area. Where they aren't? It isn't. Are there proof of safe areas where the sun god was? No.
Do not pull the background argument because that's incredible dishonesty, I showed proof posts ago of the background changing when the intersection is closed to disappear, but you dismissed as gameplay mechanics for no reason, you pulling this argument now is intelectualy dishonest and makes me doubt how fair or biased you have been in this discussion, do not treat me as a fool
The Op is against immesurableI currently agree with the OP. The outlier logic being used to discredit it doesn't make sense in this setting. We should really only treat something as an outlier if outright breaks the setting of the verse. I don't see why this would be the case if the speed rating varies. Comparisons to other instances are non-existent arguments if the nature of the speed is that it consistently varies too. I agree with Shake's conclusions largely too.
I meant to write disagree, mb.The Op is against immesurable
Instead of you just repeating explain why he would be in the intersection, why you believe that's true instead of just assuming, provide evidencewill respond soon after I get back home.
“Intersection” can easily refer to distortions in time which is what the Japanese text is referring too. This is supported in game when finding all seven emeralds. Tails can go to Crisis City, even though it takes place in the future 8:58, same with Omega at 10:01 at Flame Core.The game implies it, they say they are alive because of the intersection, and get this there is no rift, that is english dub error.
Your entire point is arguing about a thing that doesn't exist
Anyways it's implied in the game that anything that wasn't destroyed is because it was in the intersection, there is no rift, and there aren't "multiple intersections", there is only one.
It's that simple, things that aren't destroyed is in the intersection, things that are aren't because they got destroyed, no the place looking worse is not a gameplay mechanic, that's just bullshit without backing up
I am getting extremely frustated in this thread, first the opposition derrails for over a page after I made my post, it then gets misconstructed, then people nitpick points for posts on ends without making any new points, then the rules get changed mid thread to directly respond to this thread, without even commenting on it, anyone would be frustated after this
I will go over this post tomorrow since it's late, to see what I agree and don't agree with