Immeasurable Speed Sonic, time to PERISH

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Tbh I half suspect this thread was done out of spite.

 

[Theuser789]

Also, Matt is right that Time being messed up. If someone is causing Past, Present, and Future to be merged into time periods, then that only makes Immeasurable speed even more dubious. Not to mention the "Weak point" was even stated in lore about needing to be struck "Across all three time periods".

What? I literally already proved there was no merge man, I don't know why you just repeated that

Wait, you said they comment on it phase's Solaris so it would kind of disprove their they just saw Solaris as something like the sun; I am not talking about the control explanation which should be game mechanics.

You took me way too literally there dude, my point was that they can see Solaris, I said he "was like the sun" because he shines a bright light which is why he is called the sun god, not that he is a sun, anyways yeah, they can see Solaris, I said that in my post

It would be antifeats for both cases; we still take note of them. In the end, the number of antifeats vs feats take precedence for the evaluation on what is accepted on the profile. The background looks to be moving, also.

It's isn't moving, that is Sonic flying buddy, you can see by his aura, if you stand still nothing is moving, and again, cheering isn't a anti-feat

If Solaris get a downgrade from Immeasuble then I don't think Hedgehogs won't get the speed also. I think it is never explained how the Hedgehogs travel to different time periods; going from Matthew's points, it sounds like it could the nature of time being mess up from Occam's Razor than them having immeasurable speed suddenly at peal. The distorted world is a mess of time periods which is shown when collecting the Chaos Emeralds seems to support this point. I am not fully sure about the gameplay statement on the rift in the English version as the Japanese statement makes it sounds like the world still has messed up time periods. Correct me if I am wrong, though

Matt is WRONG, my first paragraph is literally debunking him, please do not ignore that part of my post

All that says in the game is that space was distorted and that caused a intersection, that's all, everything else is misinformation

Solaris's flame needing blown off from being a tiny flame for it completely defeated, support the fight take place is just separated time periods.

What? Solaris being beaten reverted him to a flame, it has nothing to do with the fight, Solaris was fought across all of time, I said already in my original

I will say this point: there is PIS about the fight from the reactions from the casts and the nature of time is like a mess. I will be neutral on the matter but kind of leaning that Immeasurable speed might be iffy, right now.

Time WASN'T a mess, and the cast DIDN'T react

 

[liluzivert]

What I want to know is, what proves that the hedgehogs weren’t in the spacetime distortion? What proves that it disappeared during the fight? Eggman could easily be referring to Solaris eventually destroying time and space. Everything else has further explanation but when it comes to this rift I don’t see any evidence which is why I’m still iffy on it.

 

[Theuser789]

Context​

I will get all my scans from the japanese version of Sonic 06, translated by Windii (enable youtube subtiles), the english version is right here

Misconceptions​

First, I am going to clear out some false info being propagaded by the con side out of a lack of knoweledge, even if unintentional

First the most blatant wrong point of "other characters can react to it! immesurable debunked!" which I don't know why it is even being argued since it has nothing to do with the standards change

First, everyone could see Solaris, even before the fighting even started, Solaris is not immesurable, he is onmipresent throught time, using the characters reacting to Solaris as a argument is incredible misleading because they all can see Solaris as a giant sun in the sky, this is show as well when they see Solaris being destroyed, therefore using this as a argument is just misinformation of the pro side points since only the hedgehogs are immesurable, the characters would need to react to the actions of the hedgehogs, cheering them on is not the same and it is dishonest to compare them both

And about the "immesurable needs a frozen background" argument, first the background is indeed frozen, as seen here, second the characters either react to what the non immesurable character is doing, or react to what happened to him, I hate using Dragon Ball exemples but in BoG the characters can't even sense nor see Goku and Beerus, but they still cheer the sayain on, I honestly don't understand putting reacting and cheering someone on the same tier

The conclusion is that reacting to Solaris doesn't debunk, and neither does cheering

---

Now to the "time was shaterred therefore this isn't a feat", which I don't understand why people are repeating this as a objective mantra when this was already adressed as wrong, just ignoring the other points

First, as a result of Mephiles becoming Solaris, he immediatley goes to destroy all universes, this spatial distortion caughts all the main characters (plot armor lol) bringing them all together, because as Shadow states they are in a intersection of time and space, as you can all see, the act of Solaris destroying everything created a intersection (ergo a point where two lines cross) of time and space, that's why Silver is with them, but as Eggman says it won't last for long

Arguments​

Now that we got that out of the way, let's go to the feat itself

Mephiles kills Sonic, causing Elise to cry and releasing Iblis, Mephiles uses the emeralds to fuse with with Iblis which then he immediately goes to destroy everything, this spatial distortion, ergo, Solaris action of destroying everything directly causes a intersection between time and space, which is where all the main characters are and the reason they aren't dead, listening to this Knuckles brings the idea to kill Solaris, which is quickly shut down by Eggman, because since Solaris exists in the past, present and future at the same time, destroying now would do nothing, this is extremely important because it singlehandely refutes this:

This is taking the gameplay too literally, Solaris isn't fighting each character individualy, he is fighting all three of them at the same time, the reply implies that Solaris could fight each one differently, which is impossible because this is just Solaris, he isn't attacking in three time periods, he is just attacking, this is seem by trying to argue that the characters collecting rings is a actual thing, when that is obviously a gameplay mechanic that has already been agreed countless times, the switching isn't canon nor is the chararcters just resting, otherwise Knuckles would be right, in gameplay only one character is needed to beat Solaris, but the story itself is telling us that's wrong

Now back on track from that, Silver counters Eggman by saying he would just destroy in all at once, Shadow agrees this would be possible with Sonic. After getting all emeralds they revive Sonic and fight Solaris.

Now to the main point of the argument, as show multiple times by the most canon source of the game, the orginal japonese dup, Solaris is a being that exists simultaneously in all time, an attack from Solaris does not follow time, because the same attack would hit you in the past, present and future, DMM's own example shows this, when the switch happens, you can see Solaris still in the position he was fighting Shadow, because the same Solaris is fighting both, of course due to gameplay limitations you can't control all three at the same time, but the story tells us that is what is happening. Now you have these hedgehogs that do not have any special abilities nor powers related to this outside of power and speed, as stated by the story, are able to fight this being and react to his attacks that do not follow time at all, and it will be both in the past and present at the exact same time, they can fight it. Now before ending this I want the opposition to explain how those three hedgehogs with finite speed and no special powers, were able to defeat a being that exists in all of time and that his attacks also exists in all of time, clearly not following the speed formula, this must be what is first responded to understand how this can happen.

Conclusion​

The new standards would only downgrade Solaris, since being a higher dimensional being isn't enough for immesurable, nor is being onmipresent throught time, but as stated by knowelegble staff members in the franchise in the previous thread, the hedgehogs would need immesurable speed to deal with Solaris without other abilities, and this point still stands today, and the other arguments are using this opportunity to try to downgrade the rating for completely unrelated reasons, under the pretense of the change.

I would recommend for @Elizah to re-read my post because a lot of his points are explained here, and I feel like he didn't understand them very well, and to also click on every link to read the original translation

 

[Theuser789]

What I want to know is, what proves that the hedgehogs weren’t in the spacetime distortion? What proves that it disappeared during the fight? Eggman could easily be referring to Solaris eventually destroying time and space. Everything else has further explanation but when it comes to this rift I don’t see any evidence which is why I’m still iffy on it.

There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub invention

There's a SPATIAL (nothing about time) that caused Sonic's and Silver's timeline to intersect in a point, anyways the super forms fly out of the intersection, there are out of there during the fight, and they fly back in afterwards.

 

[liluzivert]

There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub invention

There's a SPATIAL (nothing about time) that caused Sonic's and Silver's timeline to intersect in a point, anyways the super forms fly out of the intersection, there are out of there during the fight, and they fly back in afterwards.

But in your links, shadow talks about an intersection of space and time, and even then if it were only affecting space, silver is still with them who was in the future.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

You can say that to any other verse with immeasurable speed. Since Immeasurable is infinitely above everything else, then any lower showing of speed immediately disqualifies the immeasurable feat.

I mean, yeah, there should be several instances of those.

 

[liluzivert]

There is no rift, that's the first thing, there's no space and time distortion, that's an english dub invention

There's a SPATIAL (nothing about time) that caused Sonic's and Silver's timeline to intersect in a point, anyways the super forms fly out of the intersection, there are out of there during the fight, and they fly back in afterwards.

They just fly up to solaris, nothing states or proves that they fly in and out of the intersection. The background still stays the same during the fight and in the cutscene as well.

 

[Theuser789]

But in your links, shadow talks about an intersection of space and time, and even then if it were only affecting space, silver is still with them who was in the future.

Do you not know what intersection means? It is the point where two lines cross, a spatial distortion made Sonic and Silver's timeline connect in a point, that's why only stages from his future and present stages are there, this is simple

They just fly up to solaris, nothing states or proves that they fly in and out of the intersection. The background still stays the same during the fight and in the cutscene as well.

This is an argument from ignorance, the purple background is the background out of the intersection, as seen if you take too long in End of the World. There is proof, the intersection is where the characters are, Solaris isn't there, Sonic and Co fly to him, therefore they aren't there, this is basic logic

 

[liluzivert]

Do you not know what intersection means? It is the point where two lines cross, a spatial distortion made Sonic and Silver's timeline connect in a point, that's why only stages from his future and present stages are there, this is simple

This is an argument from ignorance, the purple background is the background out of the intersection, as seen if you take too long in End of the World. There is proof, the intersection is where the characters are, Solaris isn't there, Sonic and Co fly to him, therefore they aren't there, this is basic logic

How is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see your point.

It’s a background change with no indication that they are out of the rift. I just want a statement or just anything that isn’t vague as hell. All we have is eggman say the rift won’t last for long which can mean plenty of things.
The background still looks completely ****** up and rift-like, and in the cutscene where shadow talks about it, the rift still looks similar to the one in the battle.

 

[Theuser789]

How is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see your point.

It’s a background change with no indication that they are out of the rift. I just want a statement or just anything that isn’t vague as hell. All we have is eggman say the rift won’t last for long which can mean plenty of things.
The background still looks completely ****** up and rift-like, and in the cutscene where shadow talks about it, the rift still looks similar to the one in the battle.

Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculation

What the hell do you mean by vague? It's literally clear as water, the End of the World background turns purple like when it's close to disappearing, just like the background where Solaris is, just because the characters don't shout exposition doesn't make something "vague", something called "interpretation" exists, alos what the hell do you mean by "it can't last long means many things" no, it means something is temporary, it's blatant so

The "sky" that you see in the cutscene is already outside the intersection, where we see Solaris, using that as an argument is extremely fallacious when the intersection is the End of the World level, and that background is nothing like the Solaris fight

The intersection is where things from Sonic's world are, where they aren't isn't it, it's that simple

 

[JJSliderman]

They should scale to 4-A, as Final Egg Blaster was empowered by the chaos emeralds.

No, it wasn't. The blaster fired while all the Emeralds were still inside Emerl. Which is sort of why I've been kind of against the 4-A rating admittedly.

 

[Theuser789]

No derrailing please

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Yes don't derail this. This thread is strictly about Solaris's Immeasurable feat

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

At this point the opposition is arguing through semantics and flawed preconceptions that have yet to address all of Theuser's evidence.

Instead of circular arguments and derailment we should stick on topic, to try to find a fair as well as accurate conclusion to this mess.

Personally this CRT should be restarted by a neutral staff member with evidence for and against immeasurable speed presented in the OP with prior input from both supporters/opponents but alas.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Here's what I've gathered so far.

1. Solaris gets bumped down to Omnipresent, which I think everybody agrees on.

2. Practically none of the opposition is able to properly debunk almost anything of what User has provided in his arguments.

3. What little opposition there is comes from either A) Trying to pull the outlier card, which seems to flop. B) A misunderstanding of the context regarding the story. Or C) Moving the goalposts and arguing semantics.

I've still found User's arguments the most compelling, and would recommend any new staff or regular members joining the thread to divert attention to his arguments. Elizhaa seems to have missed what User was even arguing (that or just quickly skimmed it), so I recommend a more thorough reading of his arguments before arguing things he's already talked about or debunked.

 

[liluzivert]

How is it only spatial if you are still intersecting timelines together? I really don’t see Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculation

What the hell do you mean by vague? It's literally clear as water, the End of the World background turns purple like when it's close to disappearing, just like the background where Solaris is, just because the characters don't shout exposition doesn't make something "vague", something called "interpretation" exists, alos what the hell do you mean by "it can't last long means many things" no, it means something is temporary, it's blatant so

The "sky" that you see in the cutscene is already outside the intersection, where we see Solaris, using that as an argument is extremely fallacious when the intersection is the End of the World level, and that background is nothing like the Solaris fight

The intersection is where things from Sonic's world are, where they aren't isn't it, it's that simple

Because that is what is stated by the game itself, all your other points are speculation

What the hell do you mean by vague? It's literally clear as water, the End of the World background turns purple like when it's close to disappearing, just like the background where Solaris is, just because the characters don't shout exposition doesn't make something "vague", something called "interpretation" exists, alos what the hell do you mean by "it can't last long means many things" no, it means something is temporary, it's blatant so

The "sky" that you see in the cutscene is already outside the intersection, where we see Solaris, using that as an argument is extremely fallacious when the intersection is the End of the World level, and that background is nothing like the Solaris fight

The intersection is where things from Sonic's world are, where they aren't isn't it, it's that simple

Shadow in your scan legit says that Solaris created an intersection of time and space. You would still have to affect time to bring silver to the rift, as he was currently in the future.

Look man, your other evidence was solid, but this ain’t it to me. There is absolutely no evidence during the last story that they leave the rift.

You claim that the background change during the gameplay indicates a point where they are and are not in the rift. This is false. For starters, at the beginning of the story, it is stated multiple times that they are in a timespace rift (this means the blueish purple void in the cutscenes). In the gameplay sequence, the background gets more and more darker and you need to hit eagle statues, which stablize the rift and gets rid of solaris’ eyes. This does not prove that this section and only this section is the rift, because again that same void in the cutscene is implied to be a timespace rift the same way the one in the game is where you find all seven emeralds. The color change is nothing more than a gameplay mechanic that warns the player that spacetime is becoming unstable. Nothing implies that they are not connected. Once you get all emeralds, the cutscene plays where the hedgehogs become super and fight Solaris. The background here is the exact same as the background in the beginning. And it’s also the exact same when you fight Solaris too.

Nothing, and I mean nothing implies that they leave the rift at any time. Eggman saying that the rift won’t last for long doesn’t mean anything, because the same rift background that’s used in the beginning is also used during the fight cutscene and boss fight. And it would be a complete assumption to say that the rift stopped when they fought Solaris, because again, nothing is stated that even proves that.

 

[Theuser789]

Shadow in your scan legit says that Solaris created an intersection of time and space. You would still have to affect time to bring silver to the rift, as he was currently in the future.

Look man, your other evidence was solid, but this ain’t it to me. There is absolutely no evidence during the last story that they leave the rift.

You claim that the background change during the gameplay indicates a point where they are and are not in the rift. This is false. For starters, at the beginning of the story, it is stated multiple times that they are in a timespace rift (this means the blueish purple void in the cutscenes). In the gameplay sequence, the background gets more and more darker and you need to hit eagle statues, which stablize the rift and gets rid of solaris’ eyes. This does not prove that this section and only this section is the rift, because again that same void in the cutscene is implied to be a timespace rift the same way the one in the game is where you find all seven emeralds. The color change is nothing more than a gameplay mechanic that warns the player that spacetime is becoming unstable. Nothing implies that they are not connected. Once you get all emeralds, the cutscene plays where the hedgehogs become super and fight Solaris. The background here is the exact same as the background in the beginning. And it’s also the exact same when you fight Solaris too.

Nothing, and I mean nothing implies that they leave the rift at any time. Eggman saying that the rift won’t last for long doesn’t mean anything, because the same rift background that’s used in the beginning is also used during the fight cutscene and boss fight. And it would be a complete assumption to say that the rift stopped when they fought Solaris, because again, nothing is stated that even proves that.

You completely ignored my last point that was the most the important one

The intersection of time and space is show to be places where things from Sonic's world that weren't destroyed are, just as the plataforms were they are standing, they are the thing in the first cutscene during the festival

To make myself clear, anything that is show objects of Sonic's world is the intersection, if there aren't objects, it isn't their safe spot

Now are there objects during the Solaris fight? No. Therefore they aren't in the intersection, this is your clear cut evidence, one that you ignored and procced to nitpick my points

 

[liluzivert]

You completely ignored my last point that was the most the important one

The intersection of time and space is show to be places where things from Sonic's world that weren't destroyed are, just as the plataforms were they are standing, they are the thing in the first cutscene during the festival

To make myself clear, anything that is show objects of Sonic's world is the intersection, if there aren't objects, it isn't their safe spot

Now are there objects during the Solaris fight? No. Therefore they aren't in the intersection, this is your clear cut evidence, one that you ignored and procced to nitpick my points

Again, there’s absolutely no statement in game that proves that where Solaris is =/= the rift. Objects don’t appear in the Solaris fight because they flew all the way up in the air, but even then, there’s no real evidence that no objects means they aren’t in the rift, and it’s nothing more but complete assumptions. If spacetime wasn’t distorted during the fight then the background would at least have to be different because it indicates they aren’t in a rift anymore, but clearly it’s not the case. Until you can prove to me that they left the rift then I’m in agreement still.

 

[Theuser789]

Dude, stop being stubborn with your stance "of NO EVIDENCE", it feels like you are in denial.

The objects are only there because of the intersection, you are the one who wants to be spoonfeed something so basic as common logic

Look, everything that didn't get obliterated is in the intersection, the main characters, objects, everything because Solaris destroyed the rest, obviously where it was destroyed it wouldn't have anything, therefore if there are things alive? Inside the safe area. Where they aren't? It isn't. Are there proof of safe areas where the sun god was? No.

Do not pull the background argument because that's incredible dishonesty, I showed proof posts ago of the background changing when the intersection is closed to disappear, but you dismissed as gameplay mechanics for no reason, you pulling this argument now is intelectualy dishonest and makes me doubt how fair or biased you have been in this discussion, do not treat me as a fool

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Solaris destroyed all timelines asides from the intersection from the very first moment he appeared. It's heavily implied that this intersection is the only thing that remained and if Soalris won't be defeated quickly, that would dissapear too

 

[Theuser789]

I don't know why the opposition is nitpicking the idea that he could be in it, when every single contextual clue points otherwise, just because it isn't explicitly said, it feels like the people are arguing in bad faith

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

These semantic bro...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He's not in the intersection because this is the only place he didn't destroyed yet. Aside from all evidences suggesting that he's outside the intersection, there's also the fact that if he'd be inside it, he would've already destroyed it when he first appeared

 

[liluzivert]

Dude, stop being stubborn with your stance "of NO EVIDENCE", it feels like you are in denial.

The objects are only there because of the intersection, you are the one who wants to be spoonfeed something so basic as common logic

Look, everything that didn't get obliterated is in the intersection, the main characters, objects, everything because Solaris destroyed the rest, obviously where it was destroyed it wouldn't have anything, therefore if there are things alive? Inside the safe area. Where they aren't? It isn't. Are there proof of safe areas where the Dude, stop being stubborn with your stance "of NO EVIDENCE", it feels like you are in denial.

The objects are only there because of the intersection, you are the one who wants to be spoonfeed something so basic as common logic

Look, everything that didn't get obliterated is in the intersection, the main characters, objects, everything because Solaris destroyed the rest, obviously where it was destroyed it wouldn't have anything, therefore if there are things alive? Inside the safe area. Where they aren't? It isn't. Are there proof of safe areas where the sun god was? No.

Do not pull the background argument because that's incredible dishonesty, I showed proof posts ago of the background changing when the intersection is closed to disappear, but you dismissed as gameplay mechanics for no reason, you pulling this argument now is intelectualy dishonest and makes me doubt how fair or biased you have been in this discussion, do not treat me as a fool

dude no. A space time rift can be unstable and not have matter. Nothing is implying that the empty portions of the rift are lacking in time shenanigans. And saying that it’s only the places with separate pieces of matter again has no proof. There’s nothing disproving that time is unstable through all of the rift, and it’s even stated in game multiple times.

Again, nothing proving that parts with matter are the only places affected. And yes, it is a gameplay mechanic that the colors get worse and worse and you need to get to the eagle statues to repair the timeline but even then, it simply doesn’t matter. Nothing is shown that implies that those are the only intersections throughout the rift. We know the whole thing is unstable so it doesn’t have to be restricted to those areas, especially when there’s no statements in game that imply this.

 

[Theuser789]

The game implies it, they say they are alive because of the intersection, and get this there is no rift, that is english dub error.

Your entire point is arguing about a thing that doesn't exist

Anyways it's implied in the game that anything that wasn't destroyed is because it was in the intersection, there is no rift, and there aren't "multiple intersections", there is only one.

It's that simple, things that aren't destroyed is in the intersection, things that are aren't because they got destroyed, no the place looking worse is not a gameplay mechanic, that's just bullshit without backing up

I am getting extremely frustated in this thread, first the opposition derrails for over a page after I made my post, it then gets misconstructed, then people nitpick points for posts on ends without making any new points, then the rules get changed mid thread to directly respond to this thread, without even commenting on it, anyone would be frustated after this

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

To put it simply, Solaris ALREADY DESTROYED THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE. The intersection is the only place in the entire multiverse that Solaris didn't destroyed yet

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I agree with User here.

This is VERY CLOSE to an Infinite Speed Dragon Ball Heroes situation, which I honestly would prefer to avoid due to reasons very well known

 

[Theuser789]

I just want a discussion that comes from people challeging each other in their views, not out of bias dishonesty just to get the result you want

If people just have the mentality of discussing instead of just wanting a result half of the wikia's problems would disappear

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I currently disagree with the OP. The outlier logic being used to discredit it doesn't make sense in this setting. We should really only treat something as an outlier if outright breaks the setting of the verse. I don't see why this would be the case if the speed rating varies. Comparisons to other instances are non-existent arguments if the nature of the speed is that it consistently varies too. I agree with Shake's conclusions largely too.

 

[Theuser789]

I currently agree with the OP. The outlier logic being used to discredit it doesn't make sense in this setting. We should really only treat something as an outlier if outright breaks the setting of the verse. I don't see why this would be the case if the speed rating varies. Comparisons to other instances are non-existent arguments if the nature of the speed is that it consistently varies too. I agree with Shake's conclusions largely too.

The Op is against immesurable

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

The Op is against immesurable

I meant to write disagree, mb.

 

[liluzivert]

will respond soon after I get back home.

 

[Theuser789]

will respond soon after I get back home.

Instead of you just repeating explain why he would be in the intersection, why you believe that's true instead of just assuming, provide evidence

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, I do agree with other statements that this is for speed and not AP. The 5-A or 4-A things are completely off topic. And 2-C Super Hedgehogs are perfectly legit. Not to mention there are some 2-B possibilities going to be proposed at some point.

But anyway, I pretty much agree with Elizhaa here. Solaris does have Temporal Omnipresence yes and exists across all time yes, and that would change his speed to Omnipresent as opposed to Immeasurable yes. And yes, everyone simply being able to see Solaris wouldn't necessarily debunk combat speed or reactions; however, there is still plenty of things in the fight scene.

It was brought up the background is frozen, and I do agree the black clouds in the background do not appear to be moving; I was more so specifically talking about general instances we see raindrops moving at normal speed. Which I've also agreed was a terrible reason to dismiss speed feats faster than Subsonic but said examples do automatically debunk infinite or immeasurable speed feats. Also, I meant to include my entire post. The combination of the background and the audience should be completely frozen when two Immeasurable combat speed characters fight. The background may debatably be frozen, but Amy, Elise, Eggman, Knuckles, Omega, and Rouge all were not frozen. Amy was able to see the blue lasers fired from Solaris coming, and why would he need to charge up his lasers if he was Immeasurable.

I agree that all three fight scenes are supposed to happen at the same time, but wasn't it implied on another thread Sonic was capable of taking him out singlehandedly? I don't know who it was that made that claim, but someone said it. I also do agree Matt should be either be more constructive or don't post or the least he can do is kudos the people he agrees with much like everyone does.

I'm going to bring up comparisons to other verses, because other brought up verses. I fully apologize as I know it's detailment, but I feel like I need to make the contrasts heard. The one being brought up ultra frequently is Dragon Ball. But the problem with that is often times, Goku and Krillin purposely lower their own defenses or don't even try to evade attacks based on the nature that they didn't want some random people claiming how human they are. Not to mention Goku has been practically bullet proof and strong enough to oneshot full grown dinosaurs even in the first chapter of Dragon Ball, making all antifeats very moot. Especially with each and ever season introducing a new feat that makes them much stronger.

Same with the speed feats; it actually goes back and forth and even in DBZ saga, Goku moves so fast against the strongest villain that even those with Ki sense could barely even see him move. When Goku was stomping the Ginyu Force, Vegeta was the only one who saw him move and it literally scares the life out of him. And going all the way to Dragon Ball Super, actually most instances of audiences seeing Goku and Jiren fight happened during the warm ups. But when they went all out, they were so fast that not even the eyes of Gods of Destructions or Zeno could keep up with them; only the Angels. So it has a combination of feats and antifeats, plenty of those characters being really strong or can sense Godly Ki to begin with, and multiple feats happpened in other scenes. But the difference for Sonic is, this is allegedly the only Immeasurable speed in existence for the verse and even that's being contested about it being Immeasurable to begin with. There's a difference when one verse has multiple MFTL+ speed feats combined with some occasions of much slower characters being able to percieve fights, but when the same fights heat up; not even most other MFTL+ characters can perceive it. While in the other, we have multiple FTL to MFTL+, and in the one and only Immeasurable fight scene in the entire series; the same fight scene is literally perceived by everyone in every detail. Detailment over.

Anyway, the rules I posted in the thread should be evaluated by staff first. But from my experience, most staff agree with the things I'm proposing there. And if it gets accepted, Immeasurable speeds are getting axed especially if it's already agreed Solaris is Omnipresent as opposed to Immeasurable. But anyway, I appreciate those who worked hard and especially towards Shake, Axiom, and Elixer Blue to keep things civil. And User was also trying to be respectful while also working really hard especially. Same with all the translations by Windi. But at the end of the day, I don't think anything brought up is enough to save the Immeasurable speeds.

 

[Theuser789]

I will go over this post tommorow since it's late, to see what I agree and don't agree with

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

I 100% agree with DDM.

 

[liluzivert]

The game implies it, they say they are alive because of the intersection, and get this there is no rift, that is english dub error.

Your entire point is arguing about a thing that doesn't exist

Anyways it's implied in the game that anything that wasn't destroyed is because it was in the intersection, there is no rift, and there aren't "multiple intersections", there is only one.

It's that simple, things that aren't destroyed is in the intersection, things that are aren't because they got destroyed, no the place looking worse is not a gameplay mechanic, that's just bullshit without backing up

I am getting extremely frustated in this thread, first the opposition derrails for over a page after I made my post, it then gets misconstructed, then people nitpick points for posts on ends without making any new points, then the rules get changed mid thread to directly respond to this thread, without even commenting on it, anyone would be frustated after this

“Intersection” can easily refer to distortions in time which is what the Japanese text is referring too. This is supported in game when finding all seven emeralds. Tails can go to Crisis City, even though it takes place in the future 8:58, same with Omega at 10:01 at Flame Core.

In your evidence, Shadow states that the distortion caused this “intersection” with spacetime when eggman comments on how he was going to destroy all timelines. Speaking of which, eggman states that he will destroy all timelines, not that he already has. Solaris was tearing apart their universe by making it unstable, but he hasn’t destroyed it yet, and he hasn’t destroyed the multiverse yet either.

In other words, yes, even in the Japanese version, they are in a rift (or at least a place where time and space are unstable). And since nothing states or proves that the hedgehogs leave their universe to fight solaris, they are still fighting in their universe with the distorted space time, which makes the feat very questionable.

 

[ShrekAnakin]

Agreed with DDM ftm.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I will go over this post tomorrow since it's late, to see what I agree and don't agree with

I agree with User's counter argument that other users aren't waiting for.

Don't respond to Iiluzivert's newest post, he using assumptions to make rift and interaction mean the same. Just focus on DDM.