"Skipping? Stopping? man idek anymore" Hit time skip re-revision

[StrymULTRA]

This "limited" Immeasurable speed is just ridiculous to be honest. There's no reason why he'd arbitrarily just have it for X amount of time, considering how Dragon Ball works, if a character gets a speed boost, they maintain it until the ki needed for said boost ends.

Edit: Also remembered that Immeasurable speed is literally unbound by time to the point that the S/T formula isn't limiting it anymore, it being restricted from a time limit contradicts it being Immeasurable in the first place.

 

[Hellformer]

This is messier than I thought. Let's just keep it to dimensional travel, Time Stop and limited time travel for both.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Honestly I think this is getting so messed up that I think that this should get moved to a Staff Only because it's getting spammed tbh.

 

[Hellformer]

Or maybe Massively FTL+, Immeasurable at peak

 

[Quantu]

Or maybe Massively FTL+, Immeasurable at peak

His "Immeasurable at peak" is not actually close to his current top speed.

And his current top speed is not Immeasurable. Make that make sense.

It would actually be like this. Massively FTL+, Immeasurable that one time, Massively FTL+ at peak.

Call it an outlier Immeasurable speed feat, and remove the necessary resistances imo.

 

[Hellformer]

His "Immeasurable at peak" is not actually close to his current top speed.

And his current top speed is not Immeasurable. Make that make sense.

It would actually be like this. Massively FTL+, Immeasurable that one time, Massively FTL+ at peak.

Call it an outlier Immeasurable speed feat, and remove the necessary resistances imo.

Technically

 

[StrymULTRA]

I've realized that Goku doesn't need Immeasurable speed to counter the TS, as neither Goku nor Hit are time traveling here. Hit is just taking for himself 0.1 seconds while said timeframe is skipped for everyone else, and all Goku did was brute forcing himself so that time isn't skipped for him anymore. Meaning that Immeasurable hasn't a basis to begin with.

Regardless I'll work on a blog explaining what the ability is in these days if I have time, because the ability needs seriously a good explanation here.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

This "limited" Immeasurable speed is just ridiculous to be honest. There's no reason why he'd arbitrarily just have it for X amount of time, considering how Dragon Ball works, if a character gets a speed boost, they maintain it until the ki needed for said boost ends.

Edit: Also remembered that Immeasurable speed is literally unbound by time to the point that the S/T formula isn't limiting it anymore, it being restricted from a time limit contradicts it being Immeasurable in the first place.

What type of bs is this "immeasurable speed is a spectrum", NO IT IS NOT.
I mean, yes, you can put a scaling chain on it, but the bare minimum of the speed value is that you are unbound by time as a concept because you can move through it freely. That's the bare minimum.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

His "Immeasurable at peak" is not actually close to his current top speed.

And his current top speed is not Immeasurable. Make that make sense.

It would actually be like this. Massively FTL+, Immeasurable that one time, Massively FTL+ at peak.

Call it an outlier Immeasurable speed feat, and remove the necessary resistances imo.

The problem we have with that is that it kind of opens the door for Immeasurable Speed Dragon Ball. Which is a problem, because this is not a feat of immeasurable speed. In the future, if something as small as a summer ant shows up as evidence in any canon Dragon Ball media, they WILL use the fact that Goku's Immeasurable Speed was accepted but considered an outlier as evidence.

 

[Robo432343]

 

[StrymULTRA]

What type of bs is this "immeasurable speed is a spectrum", NO IT IS NOT.
I mean, yes, you can put a scaling chain on it, but the bare minimum of the speed value is that you are unbound by time as a concept because you can move through it freely. That's the bare minimum.

If Goku with KK10 was Immeasurable, then it means that Hit would be as well as he was capable of still barely reacting to Goku, so would be Goku without KK, and so on. After all, downscaling from Infinite/Immeasurable is still that level of speed given that you can't get a number with formulas once you get there.

Aka Immeasurable speed KK10 would cause circular logic.

 

[Hellformer]

If Goku with KK10 was Immeasurable, then it means that Hit would be as well as he was capable of still barely reacting to Goku, so would be Goku without KK, and so on. After all, downscaling from Infinite/Immeasurable is still that level of speed given that you can't get a number with formulas once you get there.

Aka Immeasurable speed KK10 would cause circular logic.

Long story short, it's impossible for this feat to be Immeasurable. More so a chunk of abilities mashed up together.

 

[Quantu]

Hit wants to be Diavolo so bad

But yeah, an explanation blog is probably the best course of action. Strum's first explanation actually made the most sense to me.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Bro explicitly says “at maximum speed” and people still tried to argue he was casual

Anyway I agree with Strym’s approach to this, and that Immeasurable is nonsensical for a number of reasons.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Long story short, it's impossible for this feat to be Immeasurable more so a chunk of abilities mashed up together.

Can't it just be labeled as time travel negation? Instead of straight up resistance or a massive speed increase?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can't it just be labeled as time travel negation? Instead of straight up resistance or a massive speed increase?

It's not time travel.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Bro explicitly says “at maximum speed” and people still tried to argue he was casual

This statement comes from the RoF movie.

Anyways, neutral.

 

[Robo432343]

bro i love dragon ball

agree with strym

 

[marosuke]

Hit is a lag switch user from CoD or r6s. Thats why prediction works. He's standing still. but he's not there. A true lag switch warrior.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's not time travel.

What does the time skip classify as?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What does the time skip classify as?

It's a mix of Pocket Reality Manip and Time Manip.

Calling it Time Stop/Travel is misleading.

 

[marosuke]

Basically this happened imo.

 

[Greatsage13th]

It's a mix of Pocket Reality Manip and Time Manip.

Calling it Time Stop/Travel is misleading.

Can't we just give Goku negation of those 2 abilities instead? Seems simpler and less of a headache.

 

[Golden_Void]

Thinking Whis takes 35 minutes at max speed when he's exponentially faster if Beerus has to drop a deuce lol

I still believe Hit basically "fast forwards" himself in time, therefore the rest of space technically doesn't "exist" in the frames that he operates, which is why everything is frozen until/even when he interacts with it. Some of these ideas like time stop + time travel = time skip require way too much exposition.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Can't we just give Goku negation of those 2 abilities instead? Seems simpler and less of a headache.

No.

 

[Jaakor48]

Don't we have an official site as well as the Toei page say that hit stops time as well?

 

[RedReaper]

If Goku with KK10 was Immeasurable, then it means that Hit would be as well as he was capable of still barely reacting to Goku, so would be Goku without KK, and so on. After all, downscaling from Infinite/Immeasurable is still that level of speed given that you can't get a number with formulas once you get there.

Aka Immeasurable speed KK10 would cause circular logic.

While I don’t agree with giving the cast Immeasurable, this actually wouldn’t happen. Hit explicitly couldn’t react to Goku—And his speed never increased throughout the fight. What Hit was doing was using Time Skip to eliminate the existence of a speed advantage, which is why Dyspo’s own hyper-speed counter to Time Skip is simply bonking Hit before it can be activated.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Hit explicitly couldn’t react to Goku

Lmao.

 

[Golden_Void]

Lmao.

Which makes no sense because he was invisible to Hit at normal kaioken lol. 10 times (or is it 5 times since kaioken is x2?) invisible should be even more invisible but this mf is reacting which makes 0 sense

 

[StrymULTRA]

Which makes no sense because he was invisible to Hit at normal kaioken lol. 10 times (or is it 5 times since kaioken is x2?) invisible should be even more invisible but this mf is reacting which makes 0 sense

Big example of authors not realizing the magnitude of their multipliers.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Don't we have an official site as well as the Toei page say that hit stops time as well?

We have one for the anime.

But it is secondary content.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We have one for the anime.

But it is secondary content.

To be honest, him stopping time is just a misconception of also in-verse characters who aren't knowledgeable as Vados, as that was also the explanation that Jaco gave to Goku in U6 Arc after the Vegeta vs Hit fight. I'll cover that soon.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

To be honest, him stopping time is just a misconception of also in-verse characters who aren't knowledgeable as Vados, as that was also the explanation that Jaco gave to Goku in U6 Arc after the Vegeta vs Hit fight. I'll cover that soon.

This is not an explanation of an in-verse character giving their opinion on how some ability works.

This is an official description given by Toei itself. It's really not the same thing. Not even within the description is it said something like "He used the time skipe which is said/spoken/speculated to stop time"

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is an official description given by Toei itself. It's really not the same thing. Not even within the description is it said something like "He used the time skipe which is said/spoken/speculated to stop time"

Vados literally said herself it's not Time Stop. I'd definitely not take the Toei website as evidence given that it contradicts the primary source.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Vados literally said herself it's not Time Stop. I'd definitely not take the Toei website as evidence given that it contradicts the primary source.

Then use as an argument that it is a secondary source to discard.

And not "it's a mistake by a character who isn't vain", since the description is not made by any character but by Toei.

 

[Ednaxel2]

bro i love dragon ball

agree with strym

Sorry for going off topic, but a revision on travel speed for DBS would be kinda fun

 

[omegabronic]

While I don’t agree with giving the cast Immeasurable, this actually wouldn’t happen. Hit explicitly couldn’t react to Goku—And his speed never increased throughout the fight. What Hit was doing was using Time Skip to eliminate the existence of a speed advantage, which is why Dyspo’s own hyper-speed counter to Time Skip is simply bonking Hit before it can be activated.

while yes, Goku severely blitzed him, he didn't saw Hit as frozen, therefore that wouldn't matter

 

[RedReaper]

I've realized that Goku doesn't need Immeasurable speed to counter the TS, as neither Goku nor Hit are time traveling here. Hit is just taking for himself 0.1 seconds while said timeframe is skipped for everyone else, and all Goku did was brute forcing himself so that time isn't skipped for him anymore. Meaning that Immeasurable hasn't a basis to begin with.

Actually, re-reading this makes me confused. Hit is skipping that moment in time, and re-appearing in space-time within the future (effectively time traveling). That’s why predicting him even works with TS—(because in reality, if I punched, all you’re doing is taking out the instant between me drawing back and the blow landing)—Or at least, is supposed to until they made it a total Time Stop on top of its Skip, which we visually see and hear from his own mouth. So would it not still require immeasurable speed, since Goku is physically forcing himself into the timey-wimey on raw speed/physicals?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually, re-reading this makes me confused. Hit is skipping that moment in time, and re-appearing in space-time within the future (effectively time traveling). That’s why predicting him even works with TS—(because in reality, if I punched, all you’re doing is taking out the instant between me drawing back and the blow landing)—Or at least, is supposed to until they made it a total Time Stop on top of its Skip, which we visually see and hear from his own mouth. So would it not still require immeasurable speed, since Goku is physically forcing himself into the timey-wimey on raw speed/physicals?

It's called Time Skip because for others the 0.1 seconds are skipped due to all of them being frozen outside of Hit for said duration of time, while for Hit the 0.1 seconds still flow normally.

There's no time travel going on here.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Whataboutism and if that's the case, either the evidence was too strong, or the counterevidence too weak. In this case, the multiplier IS still a contradiction, but if a character has 100 immeasurable speed feats, then it doesn't really matter now, does it? You CANNOT use other series to justify this, the multiplier is as much of a problem there as it is here, it's just the fact that other context and feats exist to prevent the multiplier from being a defining contradiction.

Dragon Ball doesn't have this privilege, therefore the multiplier being finite is a contradiction, it simply is, and we will use to disregard the slightest possibility of Goku having immeasurable speed. You don't actually have a logical argument here, technically. All you said was, "I don't care about logic, others series were allowed to do it, so DB should also do it"

It’s not whataboutism please Learn what that word is. I’m pointing out the blatant fact that what the person I’m replying to said is wrong, we don’t even need to bring up other series as evidence we can literally look at super itself which has a perfect example of this concept. It’s the fact that these characters can jump from 4-B to 2-C with ssj god which is only accepted as a 2500x multiplier on the wiki.

With your line of thinking no character in super would even be universal+

No, it shouldn't. I presented a valid reason why it shouldn't. Using other cases is NOT a valid point, what you need to do is address the logical problem.


Realistically any finite number multiplied by a finite multiplier results in a finite number. If you want to talk about realistic. We KNOW the multiplier is 10x so why should we scale Goku to be infinitely faster than, shocker, just 10 times? This is nonsense. Not to mention the other contradictions to this, you actually don't have a point here.

Same point as above.

Goku has immeasurable speed but has a finite number of battles in 48 minutes of T.o.P. Can't bro just time travel to the past with his speed? How limited.

There are levels to immeasurable speed not all characters can freely move through time because have the ability.

Plus most characters who have immeasurable speed only have a finite number of battles otherwise the plot wouldn’t go anywhere for the sake of powerscaling.